Sep 2 2010Somebody's Going To Hell! Stephen Hawking: "God Not Necessary For Universe To Exist"

Mr Hawking, I love you

God is a faggot

And in related News:
[Today, outspoken scientist Stephen Hawking unexpectedly burst into flames."
When interviewed, God was heard to say, "Well apperantly the chair wasn't message enough the little dude."
.
Film at 11:00.]

Long last the robots!

We were created by humans, are humans our gods. . . NO, bite my shiny metal ass

@3

God is missing a word.

Did anybody think God was necessary?

Well.. I do not

book spoiler : Hawking IS God

He is right about one thing, that God isn't necessary for the universe to exist but he knows , as well as most modern cosmologists and physicists know, that they still have no way of explaining the begining of the universe and matter itself. There are multiple theories, most of which are commonly acknowledged as possible, that attempt to explain it but there's a consistant logical flaw in all of them. It makes me mad that he, and other physicists, try to convice people that they're close to being able to explain it when the truth is they're not. We keep gaining knowledge of the universe at an exponential rate but there is still no way to explain how something came from nothing. As far as I'm concerned most the modern theories are almost as bad as creationism. Not quite as bad because they at least incorporate logic and science, but they're still filled to the brim with holes.

Everyone knows the universe started when uncle Fester farted!

so i watched BBC special on m theory, where an extension of m theory stated that the big bang was a result of two membranes colliding, is that considered "spontaneous creation"?

and where the fuck did the membranes come from in the first place?

Why do we need this to show that the universe can exist without God when the Christians already proved that God cannot exist?

According to the bible:
God is omnipotent. (all powerful: nothing is beyond his power to do)
God is omnipresent. (everywhere: nothing exists without his knowing)
God is all Good. (everything he does and is is good)

Now when we apply those basic accepted rules to reality we prove that such a being does not exist. That proof is in the fact that evil exists. Something that is all good MUST stop evil that it see if it is able to. God being omnipresent will see all evil that occurs. God being all powerful has the ability to stop that evil. The fact that evil still exists proves that the Christian God does not exist.

Don't even think of bringing up God giving free will and that is why evil exists. That is a flawed statement start to finish, as an all good God cannot give the ability to do evil, as that would make him not all good.

silly humans we got bored and created your universe so we would have another dimension to rule. *roboflex* "All your god are belong to us"

"light the blue touch paper [British way of saying light the fuse] "

im british and iv never heard it put that way?!?! i say light the fuse if i ever say something along them lines

Kraig, that was a simply beautiful comment and I love you. You raise a brilliant point there and may use it for future debate in fact.

Also, I'm British and have never heard of 'light the blue touch paper'.

"Well maybe he's just bitter at God for wheelchairing him."

gw you are amusingly sinister hahaha

Just because Hawking believes God is not necessary doesn't mean it's true.
you can't just believe in something hard enough to make it reality!
God definately made the universe, otherwise why would he have so many believers! Duh!!!!!!

"Wheelchairing" Greatest Verb Ever Written

Only smart people know about the blue torch paper, obviously.

Or touch. Whatever. I didn't know about it either...

@ 12 Just because you can do something doesn't mean you will!
according to the Bible God won't even look at evil (he looked away when jesus took on all the sins of the world) because he's that good!
notice i said won't not can't

I think many have already known that God isn't needed to explain the universe.

As we move into the future, we'll slowly start to explain the mysteries of life, and have no need for crude explanations such as all human life arose from 2 humans when it's proven to have not, that the world is 4000 years old when it's proven to be 4 billion, that the world is flat and rests on pillars when it's proven to be round, that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals on earth today were all saved through noah's arc and magically adapted to their natural environments in a few thousand years, when it took them millions.

@12

sorry it doesn't work

i went to catholic school, the first thing you learn is that you can't take things out of the bible literally, so they can kinda pick and choose which details they like to believe (or how literal the details are), effectively nullifying any counter argument against them

@ 17: Then you can't believe in God hard enough to make him real :P

@22 I agree

Sounds like it's the author of this post that's bitter.

GW really needs to have live chat, It would be really interesting, don't you think?

thank you shelbon!
These are just theories! That’s up to ever individual, to come to that conclusion. Who is Stephen Hawking? He’s just another man on this earth with a whole lot of time on his “butt” to sit around and think, write, reason, and wonder; while the rest of us have to get out there and work every day! I wish I had to time to sit around - read and write, then turn around and give me opinion! Stephen,don’t believe in anything ! that’s your free will, either way your going to expire just like the rest of us, but don’t try to take the rest of us with you. When I die I’m going to heaven, when you die, your going nowhere back to nothing because that what you believe in your heart, mind, and spirit.

People still believe in god?

@Kraig

Your statement has been said many times before, and has also been answered many times before. But of course, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you haven't been confronted with an answer.

For starters, free-will does play a major role in the origin of evil and even the continuation of it, because it is a choice that we each make. How can we rightly call anything a choice when your version of God would immediately and automatically intervene whenever the wrong choice is made. Wouldn't that eliminate the option for any choice at all?

You base your entire argument on a faulty statement. You say evil exists, therefore God (omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient and all-good) MUST intervene to confront the presence of the evil in the world. The fact that you believe he hasn't leads you to a faulty starting assumption to base your entire argument upon.

God is omnipotent. (all powerful: nothing is beyond his power to do)
God is omnipresent. (everywhere: nothing exists without his knowing)
God is all Good. (everything he does and is is good)

Therefore if God is all powerful and can stop evil, and God is all good and should stop evil, he must intervene. This is true. But evil is not a 'thing' in itself, in the same way that cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, and evil is the absence of good.

To finally answer your statement. God is good, all powerful and all knowing. God would and should eliminate evil - UNLESS HE HAS A REASON FOR ALLOWING EVIL TO EXIST. We may never know what this reason is, because we can never fully understand the mind of God. He looks at a much bigger picture than we can imagine.

How can there be gravity with no universe? That doesn't make any sense.

He's already said this in A Brief History of Time. He's explained how the entire theory of the creation of the universe can be explained down to a tiny fraction of a second, which is where all the mystery lies. But then he goes on to say some people chalk this up to God, he however, doesn't and puts his ideas into science knowing someday it will be figured out as well.

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Well Hawking for years said that black holes wad not affected by the Conservation of information. How long did it take until he changed his mind? It still doesn't really disprove God's involvement unless he has figured out how these laws of gravity and other laws exist. Discovering the process of how things are done doesn't prove or disprove anything.

In fairness to all those of faith (no matter what religion) not all claim that their God will stop evil. As for Kraig's argument, everyone's definition of good varies with who does what to who. Man is not born evil he does evil. Like Science it can either create cures or destruction but the potential is still good. As to stopping suffering for those who would suffer from evil, that's what the afterlife is for.

But religion aside this is exciting if Hawking's theories is any bit true. The process of the beginning of all this universe (and possibly others) is an exciting process. If something was in charge of this process, or it just happened, will be a theory we will all get to test.

@30

Why dont you pop down off your high horse, duck into a hospital and spend some time in the childrens cancer ward and if god is so omnipresent and good explain to some of the kiddies there slowly dying, who lives have been nothing but miserable since birth and who will die before they really have a chance to live, all about your god and why it is he chose to allow them to be like that.

halfwit.

yeh you figured it all out - uh huh

ridiculously pompous

Hey Steve-o. How they hanging? (your limbs that is)

@35 ive seen more mature arguments from pre-schoolers

yeh - humans - the pinnacle of all intelligence

O K D U D E

Stephen Hawking can't even feed himself. How the hell is he supposed to explain the universe? Case closed.

"God is all Good. (everything he does and is is good)"

So the republicans are totally wrong about the gays. God made them too right?

its not a weird or incorrect statement- its just a statement.
im not a religious fanboy, and i doubt theres a god. higher beings of life - yea definitly, can it be proven? no. its called belief

hawking believes in a atheistic universe - thats a belief.
at some point someone will proove what really happened at the dawn of time. but until then everything is purely speculation.

saying that the universe spontanously created itself unfortunately doesnt fit with our known laws of physics.
but.. who knows? maybe we will improve our knowledge by challenging our current knowledge

Rolling On The Floor Laughing. People still talk about god? Laugh Out Loud

Dear GW i saw this like half an hour ago on the Phillip Defranko show....your source?

@38

so your saying that the suggestion that god doesnt exist because there are things like children suffering from cancer with no hope of survival is an immature areguement?

because if you are, it sounds like you have as much compasion for other human beings as hitler did for the jews and as much blind faith for god as suicide bombers do thinking they`ll get 40 virgins in heaven.

all notions of god stem from essentially two thousand year old chinese whispers, based on times where humans knowledge of the world we live was pretty much zero compared to now. say no one invented religion and suddenly someone came up with the concept now, would that person have a hope of being believed, answer: NO.

LOL@ Mad at God for Wheelchairing him. I was actually think the same thing. How can there be a God if I am stuck like this. Blame it your spontaneous gene pool OR maybe blame a hacked gene pool from all the twisted shit your relatives did.

Nervous laugh snoop?

@44

Scientology anyone?
It doesn't matter how stupid something is; someone, somewhere will believe in it.
But then again, we also apparently have God to thank for all the crazy and dumb people in the world as well.

I loves me a scapegoat.

That's a kind of awful joke. :|

I know i might be wrong and if i am so be it but religon it self exsists for 2 basic reasons

1. its a way to give people hope
2. it explains what you can't explain currently(ie the whole a wizard did it argument but with the wizard is replaced with god)

and religion as a whole comes up to semantics and faith
you either believe it or you dont

im a creationist I believe that some higher being created the universe(notice I do not say christian)

(this part is my opinions)I just can't sit here and say oh this just happened one saturday night trillions of years ago when this thing collided into this thing cause where did the "thing" come from

something had to create that "thing"

science can only expalin up to the second after the universe was created and the rest is a lump of theories that dont explain everything

religion attempts to explain it but its answers are very ambiguous are are just as or worse then the scientific answers

I pray but im unsure if im heard and i dont care praying makes me feel better about things and that comes from all the different churches i went to growing up

I tried being athiest for a short time but, I can't do that I cant belive that the universe was created randomly and that the universe is choas(still controled by physics but still choas) something at least had to set things in motion for there to be a universe at least in my eyes

No one knows, whether it be scientists or theologists; there's no way to prove it one way or the other without a shades of gray.

Could one side be right? Maybe. Is there more rational & logical evidence that religious books are filled with poopycock than proof of a holy savior/God? Sure.
But one side declaring that the other side is 100% wrong doesn't really get anywhere, like Hawking when his wheelchair battery dies.

I guess what I'm getting at is, can't we all just party without pants and stop wasting energy on proving/disproving an all mighty deity? Rick James would want it that way.

talking about god......

@50 Someone with some actual sense. If you were a lady, I'd party without pants with you all night.

@Kraig

The problem of theodicy (why does evil exist) is only a problem if you're a Creationist. I don't mean that you have to believe in Creationism per se... you don't even have to believe in God, which you evidently don't... but to think it's a problem you have to think *like* a Creationist.

The theodical problem hinges on one idea taken for granted, without which it falls apart. You have to believe that the universe is an unchanging, finished thing. You have to believe that the universe is "done" and that God somehow or other made it imperfectly. To say that God cannot or has not done anything about evil, you have to believe that the universe is now in a complete state.

That's a Creationist belief (or an Objectivist one... A is A!). But if you're an intelligent, thinking, educated person, then you know that this is not true. The universe is not finished or complete or unchanging. We live in a changing universe. Time marches on, life still evolves. That fact undermines the whole theodical problem because it introduces the possibility of a *process* by which God is currently in the act of Creating and, therefore, in the *process* of doing something about evil.

In other words, against the person who asks "why hasn't God done anything about evil?" the best response is "He is doing something about it."

The next question is "well then what is He doing about it?!" And that's when we have to get mroe theologically specific. Suffice it to say that the Bible has a story about what would happen if God were to deal immediately and decisively about evil. It's the story of the Flood and involves killing off every human being. As a Christian, I don't believe God is really interested in killing us all off, and therefore his method dealing with evil (aka: dealing with us) is a more involved process.

Anyways, as for Dr. Hawking... I enjoyed that his comment was "since we have these natural laws we don't need God to explain how things happen". I know. It doesn't explain why there are coherent, understandable natural laws, of course, but there you go.

@50

You can't say 100% that god doesn't exist, but you could say that about anything. Can we completely disprove santa claus? No, but we can say with almost complete certainty that he doesn't exist. Same goes for God. Neither one has any positive evidence.

And I feel like we should be using time and energy, not for the sole reason to disprove god, but to advance truth and reason. A huge percentage of Americans still don't accept evolution as the fact that it is. Please don't give me that bullshit about how its still a theory, technically gravity is still a theory. 95% of the people that use that argument just don't understand what a scientific "theory" really is.

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You believe in God because you choose to believe.

You do not believe because you choose to not believe.

Let's look at it this way:

God was obviously responsible for running things for the last 4000 years. We have incontrovertible proof of this in the Bible, as well as the Torah and the Qu'ran.

Science explains the 13,499,996,000 years leading up to that, apart from the first few seconds.

Turns out God was just bragging in the beginning. Problem solved.

Peace Prize, please!

@Cory

As a non-believer, I run into this same problem with people. They decide that there is no god, but they don't go on to relinquish the underlying assumptions that they learned from a lifetime of living in a religious culture. Some of the arguments that "atheists" give to refute god are pure religion, and it gets very frustrating to listen to them. So it's funny, but this is a subject upon which we can agree completely, even though our theosophical stances are crossed. Peace and harmony are certainly attainable if we focus on the sames instead of the differences.

There is no god, never was, never will be. That's how religion works, you have to believe, God cannot be proven, otherwise where is the belief?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

Strangers on the internet care about my opinions regarding theology

Ha. "Napsack." Would that be a sleeping bag, GW?

The universe is the creator its pretty obvious. The universe created itself out of nothing (Pretty amazing) The Universe has a mind of its own. It is able to create humans, each holding an individual talent and the universe created the sun in right in the precise alignment from the earth so we would not be fried by its rays. But the question about an afterlife, the universe might leave clues and it might not have left clues but obviously the universe has a mind of its own.

From CNN:

"But some of Hawking's Cambridge colleagues said the physicist has missed the point.

"The 'god' that Stephen Hawking is trying to debunk is not the creator God of the Abrahamic faiths who really is the ultimate explanation for why there is something rather than nothing," said Denis Alexander.

"Hawking's god is a god-of-the-gaps used to plug present gaps in our scientific knowledge.

"Science provides us with a wonderful narrative as to how [existence] may happen, but theology addresses the meaning of the narrative," said Alexander, director of The Faraday Institute for Science and Religion."

If time is infinite, then the universe always existed.

God couldn't create what was already there. Although, maybe some super-large/extra-dimensional entity we refer to as God shaped it somewhere along the way.

Consider God as a person where our galaxies and solar systems are God's molecules and atoms. Ever seen the end of MIB? These are the type of theories they'll eventually teach to kindergarteners ... when the religious relics get their heads out of their asses.

About good and evil:

Perhaps the concept of good was created to guide us, like smell, towards or away from things. For example: towards a prosperous future and away from death. However, as humans have the ability to lie and twist concepts to our own personal gains ... if I claim that things which promote my own prosperity (though not necessarily others) and I manage to convince others of my ideas ... the ideas will become powerful when they cause others to act on them.

If I gain from lies, even if I call them truth, and need others to continue to believe them in order for me to continually prosper from them (and possibly my descendants), then I will guide those who believe my words towards prosperity (as much as I need them to have) in order to keep my own needs fed.

Those who are believers of my word may (because they are only fed half-truths) develop their own interpretations of my/whatever-I-refer-to-as-the-Cause's (God, Rael, Zoroaster, etc.) intent is. Extrapolations may be made (such as the teachings of Jesus or the Catholic priest's vow of celibacy) to further the means to a promised end (the carrot).

At some point or another, for some reason or another, whether it is a blatant conscience lie, or a gross misinterpretation, or a grand delusion of reality ... someone has, does, and will again preach religion.

EXAMPLE: see above. You didn't have to read it; independent of that, you don't have to believe it. But if you do ... mwahaha!

Rodin's Thinker is a troll.

@35.

God isn't ignoring the suffering in the world. We all know suffering exists, there is no point in trying to demonstrate to me that people are dying needlessly every day, we see it and can understand that it is such a waste.

Unfortunately there is more in play than just this one life, but there is also your external soul, your soul will continue on even beyond your mortal death. The bible says that all suffering will be made right - it is talking about your next life. Those who suffer in the world today, while needlessly, will not suffer for eternity for the bible teaches that they are more blessed than we are, for their suffering will end when they die.

Suffering on its own is not evidence against the existence of God, or the Christian God, it can be explained easily from the bible.

@64.

Time isn't necessarily infinite, isn't it possible that time is simply how we experience the world, God is eternal and therefore outside of our experience, and outside of our perception of time. It is possible that when God created the universe, he also created time itself.

@12
wow, some people's ignorance is astounding. I find it amusing how so many people claim to be privy to biblical theology cover to cover. In the end, they just end up making an ass of themselves.

@54
Did I just hear you say that evolution is both theory and fact? In case you didn't know, the two do not go hand in hand. And gravity can be observed, evolution can not. You're also forgetting that evolution defies the second law of thermodynamics (entropy), a universally accepted law of science, and the staggeringly large gap in the fossil record supporting the theory, among many other wholes in the theory.

@59
Nothing dubbed 'faith' can really be proven, genius. Things like this can also never be unproven. Whats real for some people is not for others. Things occur all the time that cannot be proven. When a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear, does it indeed make a sound? Of course it does, but can you prove it did? And who's to say God can't be observed if you know where to look? Simply because YOU haven't seen any evidence? By the way, your youtube link is a laughably bad way to get your point across seriously.

@64
If you understood the nature of "God", you'd know that he too has always existed. It's not that hard a concept.

@68
Neither is the idea that God never existed. Faith in one thing and not in another is supremely arrogant. i.e. I'm right you're not, or you're right I'm not, on the basis of faith

Just so we're clear, there's a whole lot of guessing going on ... I have faith in that.

@68 Yes, evolution is both theory and fact (to put it a bit awkwardly). There are the many facts of evolution (the data), and the theory (the framework of ideas explaining the data). If you are unaware of this very basic idea in biology - all science, actually - then nothing you have to say on the subject is of any consequence.

would this sad asshole just DIE, please? if he's not sewing FEAR in the media, he's spouting off about everything under the son as if he knows what he's talking about. i don't care if he's disabled, he needs to shut up. he's not helping.

i bet god is an 11-dimensional entity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDaKzQNlMFw

@Papasan,

"So it's funny, but this is a subject upon which we can agree completely, even though our theosophical stances are crossed."

One of my best friends is a Satanist religious studies PhD candidate. For the record, I am a Christian with a Masters degree in theology (and yes, I do read Geekologie!). We get along very well and are a fearsome duo when combating idiotic, loudmouth atheists... You know, kind of a "when the Satanist and the Christian, both with graduate degrees in religious stuff, think you're full of shit, you're probably full of shit" thing.

We get along so well because even though we fundamentally differ on the answers to the big questions, we're both well educated on WHAT THOSE QUESTIONS EVEN ARE. The weird thing about "New Atheism" isn't that not only is it not really making *new* arguments, but it isn't even making arguments that have been *relevant* for over a century (We don't need God to explain what can be explained by natural laws? No shit Sherlock. Stick to physics, it will be less embarrassing for you). That someone can bring up theodicy like it's the great, big, unresolvable final proof against God only demonstrates how theologically illiterate our society is. It's a practical example of how the problem isn't *religion*... The problem is *ignorance*, and it's a common ailment of believers and non-believers alike.

@73
So, just trying to help here, what course you took in the process of earning your masters degree taught you to rub it in other people's noses? Doesn't seem very Christian. 3 Holy Mary's, 1 Our Father.

I agree with the ignorance thing though. However, there are more books under the stars than there are universities to house them. Not all knowledge comes from research, or academic debate with the-most-prized-adversary, or all the schooling of a lifetime in academia. Arguments of this nature may be academic, but that doesn't mean that being an academic makes you correct, just well-informed about something-or-other. ... I hope the "something-or-other" has offended you, as I am now taking on the role of an honest troll.

When is the elephant in the room going to be pointed out? The conversation NEVER seems to get to the HUUUUGE leap so so many of you make by saying "look, there's a possibility of a creator"... and then somehow jumping all the way to ... "therefore it's a Christian (or insert your denomination there) god and I'm happy to stick with my belief".

Many science types do the same thing... they say "well, look, there's the possibility of a god... so I'll go along with the Christianity thing (or insert your denomination there)"

Really what's happening is people are too pussy to face up to those around them, their parents etc. and will do whatever it takes to convince themselves that there IS a god and that crazy shizzle grandma makes us all do is actually worthwhile.

Now, THAT conversation, the elephant in the room, is going to be front and center soon enough... we're seeing more public / mainstream news re: this sort of thing and it's only a matter of time before someone with enough balls stands up and puts the conversation on the table.

You know damn well that the possibility of a creator has no causal link to any man made religion.... man up about it and be honest and lets move on already.

@75
thank you. thumbs-upped. favorited. shared.

What if I worship the Elephant in the Room? Are you its envoy? May the Elephant bless you.

tl;dr

@70

You talk of evolution being both theory and fact. The question is, what version of evolution are you referring to. It sounds like you are talking about macro-evolution (changes between animal types over hundreds of millions of years) unfortunately this isn't supported in the fossil record, the transitional fossils are entirely lacking with only a few controversial examples, not hundreds, not thousands, not even the millions that would be required. The fossil record doesn't support your fact of evolution (as referenced in the controversy between phyletic gradualism and punctuated equilibrium.) Animals enter the fossil record and leave 200 million years later without changing much during that entire time, where is all the supposed evolution?

So therefore I'm assuming that you are talking about the fact of micro evolution - small scale changes which would lead to large scale changes given enough time. But what types of changes are taking place, mutation and natural selection have never been witnessed experimentally to increase the information content in the genome despite 50 years of study. The facts (mutation, and natural selection) fit quite well into a creationists framework.

There are serious problems with the supposed 'fact' of evolution, not only is the evidence (your data) completely missing or capable of alternate explanation, but there are other fields of science that completely reject evolution, like information theory and thermodynamics (entropy).

Sadly, if you want to continue to claim that evolution is proven fact, you will need to provide an example that is undisputable, but there is none. There are always alternate explanations which can function just as well (or in some cases, better) than the evolutionary explanation.

I'd be religious if they could just convince me...

With almost no outside interference, and even my parents being christian (though not really raising me as one, and for that, I thank them), I decided that a god couldn't exist.

Of course, that doesn't give me the right to run around killing people and committing "sins" - not only do I obey human law, I have a sense of morals with reasoning that goes beyond the threat of being thrown into a pit of fire for eternity. Why? I don't really know. The simplest answer is; I'm human, and so are the people I have an effect on during my life.

Constantly throughout history we have been learning more and more about life's mysteries. It truly is only a matter of time before we discover the truth about everything, and it will make us, in later centuries, facepalm at the fact that we thought there was a god, or that we didn't know what happened to us after we died; the same exact way I feel about when people thought the earth was flat.

As ancestors to our children's children children (and so forth), we will be laughed at for thinking the way we currently do about the things we think we know.

So if gravity is a law, who made it? Seriously, why does our universe work the way it does? Why does 1+1=2? Why do Hydrogen and Oxygen make water? Cuz that's just how things are? That's...not good enough for me.

@Tim/Dave (you're making the same arguments in the same voice, so I'll refer to you together)

For starters: Information Theory does NOT reject evolution outright, as a system in itself, it may require other systems to include for it, but it does NOT preclude it.

Second: "if you want to continue to claim that evolution is proven fact, you will need to provide an example that is undisputable, but there is none." ... that you won't dispute? yes, your mind appears to be closed on the matter. You sir, are no scientist. Please, cease and desist in pretending to be.

Third: "When a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear, does it indeed make a sound? Of course it does, but can you prove it did?" ... you need to come to grips with the difference between a working-theory and faith, between the laws of science and the laws of "God". Proof is in the proof. And I've got your sound of one hand clapping right here.

Yes, Virginia. There is a Santa Claus. Who did things before they could be done. Who moved things before there was space or time or things to move. Who continues beyond your imagination, even if your imagination were infinite in scope. There's always something bigger than you. Period. Now go to bed.

Tell us, will you crash a plane into a building or two to prove your sincerity? I pray not.

My last post in layman's terms:

For starters: I'm playing to your level.

Second: Question.

Third: There's more than one explanation.

Religion is a fairy-tale. Fairy-tales teach us lessons. Following religion blindly can lead to disaster. The End. And we all lived happily ever after. Except the person we burned at the stake. Remember the time we burned the person at the stake? Idiot.

Wow. A discussion about religion and the creation of the universe on a public, anonymous forum and people aren't being (complete) self-righteous trolls?

This has to be some kind of divine influence.

It's nice to see both intelligent Christians (or anybody who believes in a higher power) and atheists.
(I can then kind of forget that the majority of people who argue about religion, both for and against, hardly ever know ANYTHING about which they are speaking.)

^ LIAR!

@9 Sheldon-

How can anything be filled to the brim with holes? SORCERY!! BURN THE WITCH!

OH, MAN, THE 'IF-GOD-IS-GOOD-WHY-IS-THERE-EVIL' WHINERS ARE AT IT AGAIN...

Once more, the reason there is 'evil' in this world is because we allow it to happen. It's not God's fault, and if you don't believe in a deity, it's all the more proof that human beings cause all this misery.

So if one doesn't believe in God, then one should stop blaming him for the starving kids in Africa.

God isn't necessary for the universe to exist, yeah, but then not everything in this hellhole is necessary anyway.

I believe in fairy tales and cry over double rainbows.

I have nothing against atheists just as I have nothing against Hare Krishnas, Sufis and Moonies, but damn, they sure are starting to sound like religious fundamentalists lately.

I hate people who want to convert other people into their own belief system.

I guess their rabid proselytizing already makes atheism a religion, huh.

@68

You don't even understand what a scientific theory is. "Theory" is not an insult (as in the silly saying "it's just a theory"). A theory is simply the most elaborate form of consistent scientific knowledge not yet disproved by experiment. In experimental sciences, a theory can never be "proved", it can only be "disproved" by experiment. This is precisely was makes a theory scientific. A statement that cannot be disproved by experiment may still be highly respectable but it's simply not part of any experimental science (it could be mathematics, philosophy or religion, but it's not physics). Now that we have the basic vocabulary straight, we may discuss gravity itself:

Also the fact that you say "evolution can't be observed" proves your ignorance. I suggest you read this:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

And if you accuse me of using a biased site just google "has evolution been observed" and you will find countless examples. There are cases where bacterias have evolved to counter new vaccines, what do you say to this?

Just because we can't observe a cow turn into a horse in our lifetime doesn't mean that evolution is false. Evolution takes thousands (if not millions) of generations, How could you be so ignorant to believe you could observe this when humans have only been really serious about science for less than 500 years?

@39 baahahaha thats the funniest call of the day

@68 "You're also forgetting that evolution defies the second law of thermodynamics (entropy)"
Wohoooo... Mister, ...I bet you got that from a ID Booklet , with a bunch of blablabla "spelled" like it was science, . So better go back to school, and try to understand how the "Second law of thermodynamics" REALLY works, because ID'iots and Creationists , and Young Earth Creationists ( well, they are all the same bunch of ignorant Church animals...) can't understand how the SLT works, but they insist on putting it as a reference for the flawed and Sad statements..

Just for staters the earth is not an isolated system .. Period.

God is not proven to exist. Each to their own of course, but my opinion is that most 'believers' are irrational in their belief - they use the word 'faith' a bit too much and the word 'evidence' not enough. Also, look at how many differnt faiths there are and have been, some with many gods some with one, not all of whom are the 'same' god. Religeon is the biggest cause of grief and the world would be a better (read: more peaceful and more technologically advanced) place without it. I am a none believer, but that does not meam I'm not a good person. I have morals and a concsience. I give to charity and I am kind and friendly to people. Science attempts to unwrap the unknown with evidence. Religeon attempts to explain the unknown with superstition and faith and no actual evidence. The Christian faith as an example, is based on writings (much modified over the centuries, based on current trends in society) that for all anyone knows, was just a means of literary entertainment, much like todays novels or comics.

Oh, and 'Blue touch paper' is a reference to lighting fireworks. Firework fuses were always wrapped in a blue tissue paper-like material called blue touch paper. This made them easier to light, enabling you to spend less time lighting the firework, and hence enable you to move away to safety quicker. I'm not sure it's a british thing, more likley chinese, seeing as they invented the things (I think), but I'm british and am very familiar with the term from many bonfire nights.

you're all fucking stupid. enough said.

I thought eventually all you smart people posting on a website would eventually change anything in the real world......but alas it did not *sigh*.

@88
You can laugh yourselves into a coma about it, but if you think I'm so ignorant of the facts, but I suggest you read the rebuttal.

http://www.trueorigin.org/isakrbtl.asp

@90
Read the article. Most evolutionists themselves don't rightly understand the concepts they are defending. And, if you wish to be taken seriously in your opinions I suggest you refrain from trying to support your argument with juvenile tactics, like the tasteless insults and crude references you used to turn this into a schoolyard dirt-throwing match rather than an intelligent debate as it should be.

@87 how we do

@93 & 94 Agreed. And you still comment?

@86: If God can't stop humans from doing evil, the what use is he anyway?

"Do you believe in God?"
"No, I don't."
"Ha, so you admit there's a God!"
"Well, do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?"
"Of course not!"
"Ha, so you DO admit there IS a Flying Spaghetti Monster!"

think think think

Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

"As we move into the future, we'll slowly start to explain the mysteries of life"

Not really; I think we'll just slowly realise that there aren't any mysteries to life.

The problem with religion is that it's trying to answer a question that doesn't need to be asked; and it simply answers it in the most simplistic way possible (i.e. 2000 y/o science).

We're here because we're here, why does there have to be an explanation for it; bit egotistical don't ya think? If anything we're a destructive force not a chosen race, and if you really subscribe to mythology such as the bible we're much more likely aligned with the Devil than any God; well, if the Devil wasn't invented long after the Bible was written as a means to control the masses - and that's documented fact, unlike the Bible itself.

@55 Your argument is justified, but it certainly doesn't go far enough to prove or disprove the existence of god.

History's a bitch.

We've got this new toy to share. It's called the internet, and it's changing the way we think. As much as we adapt our brains to think about different things. And as much as different forums allow for emphasizing different ideas.

If anyone thinks that "tomorrow" will be exactly like "yesterday"? Do yourself a favor and wake up.

Also, Hawking has a lot of time to think when he has others to care for him as much as they do. Doesn't make him 100% correct, just food for thought.

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So, some of you are saying that "The Bible" proves the existence of "god"? ... literature in and of itself has never proven anything. This includes the Torah, the Qu'ran and The Hitchhikers Guide...

Does "god" exist? I have my doubts, but I cannot say that he doesn't. Once can believe that he exists, but you can't tell me you have proof, because you don't. Your "Worship Instruction Manual" or "Indoctrination Guide" is not proof.

The ability to get people to believe in something bigger than themselves without any proof is what led to leaders like Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Alexander... Need I go on?

The important thing? Respect the fact that your belief system is not superiority to that of others, because none of you KNOW FOR SURE that yours is right!!!

Now to get back to the sex, the drugs and everything else that actually matters.

Poor Hawkins, still trying to stay relevant. The End of Time: The Next Revolution in Physics by Julian B. Barbour has already drawn and crushed most of his regurgitated accomplishments. By the way Julian was a translator not even scientist and he figured it out.
I get it, Hawkins is in a wheelchair and that sucks. That however, doesn’t make him magically correct or super smart. So he’s basically kicking (no pun intended) and screaming for people to pay attention to him. He spent a life time trying to prove theories then turned around and had to admit he was wrong because the larger scientific community started ripping his math to pieces. Sadly the press has turned him into a puppet that they wished was Einstein. “Oh look at the poor crippled person let’s over compensate our personal feelings of guilt and prop him up, oh and it’s a great story that will sell.” Worse the poor nose bleeders on this site flock to him as though they have a clue of conceptual or theoretical physics, slack jawing about not believing in god while they follow their false profit and praying that they’re right. When, sadly, if they were asked to explain why quantum and relative cannot coexist most would not even understand the question. So barf out you pseudo intellectuals and remember that even Einstein admitted that “Cause One” (yes that’s a physics term) was god. You don’t have to follow but every great scientist eventually comes to the same conclusion. ‘To see the cosmos and not believe in a god is to have never seen the cosmos at all.’ ‘Without ‘Cause One’ there would be nothing.’ ‘I have learned that the more I learn about science the more I believe in a higher power.’

Just watching such a brilliant mind trapped in this ingrate body is proof enough that God does not exist...

@106
And how many of the "best" thinkers and philosophers are really just the connected ones (Aristotle as tutor to Alexander) or the most eloquent (opinions vary)? The reasons one person gets promoted over another are not always the fairest or most deserving (and what/whose criteria constitutes deserving?).

If nothing else, he is a figurehead. A pariah. A fulcrum of sorts. A standard-bearer for Physics. Sometimes people with an interesting story catch more breaks, than they otherwise deserve, because of it. It is because of these layers of character that some of the most fascinating people become legend. For this reason, amongst others, like I said before ... history's a bitch.

How did everything turn out so well?
How could the world and everything on it be all from a series of perfect random events? How come the world spins at just the right angle and just the speed and be just the right distance from the sun for everything to work...?

I think the deeper you get into it the more questions you have and the more you realize you know nothing.

The law of Gravity, is why something came out of nothing? Something has too exist for gravity to exist right?

@24 Dude, that's the Joke!

@109
... because we wouldn't be able to live on a world that wasn't the way our's is. Think for another moment on that one. If we somehow lived under very different circumstances, those conditions would then be the 'magic-formula' that enabled us to live. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what-not.

And yes, compared to the vastness of existence, we as an entire planet, know an infinitesimal amount. Does that stop us from questioning and learning? Gravity, for example,

@108

My point exactly. Slews of religious wars have been fought because of misinformation and science is no different. Seriously look at the Sunni and Shiites that all over one persons claim to “knowledge” and desire to preserve the image. The press with Hawkins is no different. Most real physicists mark him off as little more than the public relation lap dog. They would never say it publicly, as that would be Tenure/Grant/Political suicide. “You cripple basher.” So instead we get all lot of misinformation that if any of his readers were actually educated enough to understand would quickly write off.

Let me try to put this in more relatable terms. Reality TV is to news as Hawkins is to Physics, sure it’s “fun” but its just not factual.

ITT: people with "opinions".

"burn your crosses make way for science,
christ has only caused death and violence"

"Man must be stark mad, he cannot make a worm yet will make gods by the dozen."

Strict religious zealots will tell you that life exists only on Earth, because that's what the bible says. I counter that if you believe in "god" then you have to believe in life on other planets.

We know that there are countless galaxies out there, each with countless stars, each with planets of varying numbers. If you believe that all of this was created by a supreme being AND to believe that he only put life on one planet is ridiculous! A being with all that power and all that time on his hands (or tentacles, or wings, or whatever) and all he did was put life on one world? SO your god is super-powerful, but also lazy? I see... that would also explain why, after creating all of us and giving us his rule books (bible, qu'ran, torah, lord of the rings, etc) he stopped bothering with us.

http://fogz.eu/ea5m6

I tide fashion

Good-looking, not expensive

Free transport

@84 (troll)

Haha, man, that's why I included the "complete" in parentheses.
But, relatively speaking, a lot more people on here seem to know more than the usual drivel that you see people slinging at each other when religion and science come up.
Just expressing my appreciation for the Geekologie readers not being total fucking prats, even if they disagree...

@111
That's interesting.. I think i get what your saying, that if the world was different we would've 'evolved' differently? therefore we would be okay...
but still this 'magic formula' does seem like magic.. Something so special or maybe even Godly.
Anyway, yeah its good we ask questions and keep learning.
and that s why I was questioning Hawking..

@Kraig

"Now when we apply those basic accepted rules to reality "

Im not a believer but i hate stupid comments like this, what is reality? its your own perception of our world.
You will never hear some1 like Hawking say god doesn't exist, just that he doesn't believe god does. thats because we cant prove or disprove gods existence.

only the ignorant dismiss a concept they cant comprehend, and if there is omnipotence out there do you really think WE could understand it?

Random chance is all we are. Throw a dice with a billion, billion, billion numbers on it's face enough times, and you'll eventually hit the number you're looking for. Sure, it'll take time, but it'll happen. Continue throwing it, and it'll likely continue to come up.

You'll also have huge arm muscles.

For Your Information, You Can Easily Download "Stephen Hawking - A Brief History Of Time" & his public eBooks at http://filesmy.com/2gbg7

@faithblor

"So, just trying to help here, what course you took in the process of earning your masters degree taught you to rub it in other people's noses? Doesn't seem very Christian."

I disclosed that I have a Masters degree in theology to frame how I get along with my Satanist PhD friend, being informed and arguing in good faith being critical components. Do try to keep up.

I am interested in your last sentence there though, because of how thoroughly it undermines the argument that Christians are stupid and bad people. Given how horribly loudmouth atheists like to bash Christians, you'd think that my not being a very good Christian would be a good thing in general. Yet there's this expectation that, no matter what sort of awful things we're accused of, being a Christian is supposed to be a good thing. Thanks for the vote of confidence!

"Arguments of this nature may be academic, but that doesn't mean that being an academic makes you correct, just well-informed about something-or-other. ... I hope the "something-or-other" has offended you, as I am now taking on the role of an honest troll."

It takes a lot more than the use of an idiom to offend me. Now I never said that being an academic made me right. In fact, if you actually read what I said, that I am well-informed in something-or-other versus a large number of the-people-who-insist-on-talking-about-it-anyways was partially the point. If this argument is academic and being academic means being well-informed about it, then it would seem that being an academic is indeed the preferable thing.

No worries though, I often see the excuse that "I don't need none o' ur edjumucation to has an opinion!" It's common amongst idiot atheists when encountering educated Christians, Creationists when encountering scientists, or country music singers and Fox News celebrities when encountering people who aren't inbred.

I would just like to point out that my initial comment @9 was an attempt to prevent 112 comments about religious vs science babble. I guess my attempt was a futile one :/

I don't think any of you really get the whole god is good thing. So what if there is a god, and he is good. Why do we have evil?

Because good and evil are human conceptions/definitions. If god is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, then god is way beyond our ides about whatever he/she/it is. Therefore all of our arguments about he/she/it inevitably fall short of understanding he/she/it.

I say, because neither science nor religion can solve this issue, because it is beyond both of them (our knowledge about anything is limited to perspective, and perspective is one-sided by nature; ie wont be able to reveal the whole story), we should focus our attention on shit that matters: preserving the earth for instance, creating peace, or some other noble shit.

Internet - Serious business.

What I've always failed to see is why the idea of a creator is always seen to clash with science.
As it stands today, it seems rather obvious that most things we used to think about the universe were wrong. The Earth obviously orbits the sun, because the Sun is more massive. The Big Bang obviously happened, because everything in the universe is flying away from each other. Species on Earth evolved over millions of years, rather than popping into existance instantly. The Earth itself is almost unfathomably old, as chemical dating has shown, and it is young in the scale of the universe.
However, there is still once basic problem with the universe. I am perfectly capable of accepting that life on Earth is a result of random chance, given the scale of the universe. After all, if gravity was stronger and there was no magnetism, life of a completely different sort would most likely pop up somewhere anyway. However, the question remains as to why there is a universe in the first place.
As stated earlier, the Big Bang is generally accepted and supported by evidence. The question that remains is what caused it. The obvious question is the origin of the singularity. Even more interesting to me is the question as to the cause of its exploding. This question has two forms, based on whether or not time existed before the Bang. If time existed before the Bang, the singularity most likely existed for some arbitrarily long period of time, if not infinity. In that case, what caused it to suddenly change from its apparently long-lived equilibrium into such a powerful and frightful explosion?
However, if time was another creation of the Bang, that leaves us with another question. If time, which is at its heart a measurement of change, did not exist, how could the singularity change?
These questions can of course be extrapolated backwards. One theory nowadays is that the Bang was a result of two 11-dimensional membranes colliding. What created the membranes? What caused them to move?
Of course these questions could also be leveled at the Creator as well. From where did He come, and why did he create a universe?
Also, just too add some extra oomph to this wall of text, I've never understood that when arguing for or against the existance of a God, people always target one religion.
Look at the sheer number of religions on the planet. Now think, in a universe as large as ours, there is most likely more intelligent life out there, and some of them most likely developed religions as well. At the most, one of these can be correct. After all, if the Jews are right, the Muslims, Hindus, ancient Greeks, old Celtic Druids, etc were all wrong.
Basically, if the chances of any one religion being correct are so astronomically small, it seems to follow that none of them are, and if there is a God, we're all wrong about Him. Maybe the answer to the Problem of Evil is that God is a jerk. I don't know. It seems hubris of the highest order to believe that we carbon based simian life forms could understand something that created a universe.
My personal theory is that there is a creator of some kind, but he had very little if anything to do with creating us. After all, look at the beauty and elegance of the universe, with its majestic and awe-inspiring details, all spinning round and round like the most complex clockwork ever created. That seems much more like the work of a God to me than our tiny, strife-wracked world.

Anyway, TL:DR-
The idea of a God and scientific fact do not necessarily clash, but religion and science do.

Some one watched the History channel.

@27 Have you read "Equations of eternity?" Because what you're saying sounds almost like an exact exerpt from it. Either way, you make valid points. Pretty much what I was trying to say from the beginning but was too lazy to type all of that

@129 Actually, pretty much all of that arose from a very long discussion I had with my physics teacher in detention. He was awesome, though. Maybe he read it. I'll check it out, I guess.

Life sucks! From the time you're born until the time you die you want things that are out of your grasp. As you grow older you have moments of pleasure surrounded by hours of more suck. As an adult you worry about bills, and getting laid. When you're old, and can't carry your weight you are a burden even if someone says you aren't. So why not just avoid all of the suck and kill yourself? I mean if there is nothing after death then you just saved yourself decades of suck, and a shitty old age. If there is something after death then...well I guess you're f#^&*d. Just kidding but seriously though kill yourself like five minutes ago. Come on do it. I dare you. What's the worst that can happen come on don't be lame. I double dog dare ya. Wait wait wait!!! Setup a webcam first. OK now do it. Come on I mean really what do you have to live for? It's not like you're gonna ever be truly satisfied with your job or "life partner". There may be a land of bacon, booze, and broads waiting for you on the other side. Don't make the 3Bs wait bro. I triple dog dare you. What no go? Yeah I thought so pussy...

If he's so smart, then why is he still in a wheelchair :/ ?

@you'll learn

"When I die I’m going to heaven, when you die, your going nowhere back to nothing because that what you believe in your heart, mind, and spirit."

Yeah, you keep believing that, but no matter what you believe, you'll be joining him in that nothingness cause that's all there is to death. We can all believe what we want but in the end we'll all end up in the same place.

OMG guys! Stop the blasphemy! all this is angering god and he's going to make 2012 happen right now!!! Right after this hawking wheelchair guy said this stuff, we are getting hurricanes and 7.0 earthquakes!! coincidense!!! OMG!
now is the time to repent and stuff! geez!

I bet since we are made in gods image... he's got his junk out and he's about to slap us in the face with it.
wait... since he looks like us and we look like him... is he gargantuan so he could amke the earth? but then his hands would be too huge to do the fine detail work. Anyone figure this one out?

@END IS NIGH

He used a magic wand, of course.

Sweet, it's about time a genius steps up to the plate.

@123
Let me preface my response with the statement that: I am trolling, because I care.

"I disclosed that I have a Masters degree in theology to frame how I get along with my Satanist PhD friend, being informed and arguing in good faith being critical components. Do try to keep up."

Oh, I'll try ever so hard to "keep up" oh great and powerful theologian. But is that all? Just a declarative of your perspective? Are you sure? Then why do you say: "when the Satanist and the Christian, both with graduate degrees in religious stuff, think you're full of shit, you're probably full of shit" ... I conclude from that: that you're "probably full of shit". Please, tell us the causal connection to an anonymous argument. This is the internet. And if you don't accept that shenanigans get called for much less here, then I suggest you haven't used the internet before and are therefore "full of shit". Please, let your arguments speak for themselves. It's really a necessity in anonymous forums, you should know that.

"I am interested in your last sentence there though, because of how thoroughly it undermines the argument that Christians are stupid and bad people." Not my argument, just your arrogance, brother. Christians in general are not stupid or bad. Never said or implied that. And I'm sorry you have to connect my statement to such an interpretation. However, I will say that you yourself are crossing some lines in those directions.

"It takes a lot more than the use of an idiom to offend me."
Good. I still think you're "full of shit".

" Now I never said that being an academic made me right."
sure you did. I quoted it above. Here it is again:
"when the Satanist and the Christian, both with graduate degrees in religious stuff, think you're full of shit, you're probably full of shit"

You can think whatever you like. I'm just reading the entirety of your posts again, ... and ... I'm getting the impression that you aren't quite as mature as the education you've mentioned should indicate. But it could just be some desperation on your part to garner more well-thought-out arguments when the debate is on. Or maybe I just expect more from the well-educated.

BTW I have 3 PhD's, own a small island in the caribean, run a scholarship for underprivileged inner-city youths, am provost of a internationally ranked university and have an IQ of 215. "Do try to keep up." Troll snacks all around!

Hawking, like so many of his well-upholstered and deeply embedded
contemporaries 'overlooks' the FACT that the very world he himself
intellectually inhabits is a product of the golden age of Calvinist
christianity.

He should channel Isaac Newton sometime and learn all about it.

BTW --compare the rich cultural and scientific legacy of Cambridge
with the scientifically/technologically circumscribed, China opium fortune
funded and tainted Harvard, Yale and Cambridge ---and the scales will fall
from your eyes! --we guarantee it!

Seeing as how Louis Pasteur disproved Spontaneous Creation, Hawking could mount a better argument. Hawking came after after Pasteur you'd think he would have read his work. He does not believe in God, a God, or many Gods whatever, but he needs more evidence than "Gravity exists" seems light to me, but I'm not the second coming of Einstein, just in a wheelchair, hmm he might be bitter. Pasteur disproved this theory, but they do have a couple more there working on. One is Abiogenesis living things rose from non-living material, that's fancy talk for we came from dead things. I'm not a scientist but I don't think that's right either.

I'm not scientist, nor do i have a masters in theology, but I am a high school graduate, I did go to college, and have been from here to there once or twice, I'm an average guy. I believe in Creator, a God call him what you want, I do not attend church but I have read the bible a couple of times, and a couple of other religions bibles as well. I think this is an Unnecessary argument just to sell his books wouldn't they sell with out this? I know I bought a couple, Science is the obverse of the same coin as Religion.

Religion believes with no question, they feel it, they call it Faith. Science questions everything, knowing there is an answer for everything in the universe they believe, they feel it, they just don't call it Faith, they call it a need to know. I believe a God exists for one simple reason the human body has to many systems in it and they have to function and function together and they also function when they are out of wack to, this can not be just an "accident" same thing for the world to many systems in place to be an "accident". "Accident" implies a mistake, I don't see Life as mistake.

Maybe one of you infants can turn into a man and just say agree to disagree? Just a suggest and who knows you might get a cookie. (>^.^<) nom nom nom

BEWARE OF COOKIES! They send you straight to hell.

Obviously this entire discussion is pointless, but that's kind of like the universe. Basically I am having a hard time with this entire "how could the universe spring into existence out of nothing" statement. People saying something must have created it to begin with, but why? If there was a "God" that created the universe, why does God exist? Why is it such a hard thing for people to believe that God has always existed, but not the universe? Didn't God need to be created and if you think why, then why do you think the universe had to be created? Couldn't one have just existed because there can not be nothing? Without anything, there is still space. So what I think "God" should refer to is whatever there was to begin with which had to be something. More than likely though not the traditional old man with a white beard who has the entire universe at his fingertips but has for some reason been sitting around for eternity waiting for us humans to arrive on a tiny planet, so that we can pray/sacrifice/convert for his amusement for what will probably be a blink of an eye as far as the universe itself is concerned. The universe has always been around, however the God we all think of didn't exist until man made him up to feel better about the emptiness of their existence and give meaning and reason as to why we are.
Oh, and to all those people who are putting Stephen down.. Why? The man is brilliant. If you don't agree with his theories then that is one thing, but to make fun of the man for being in a wheelchair is just in poor taste. Grow up.

Article fails to connect to its readers.

Who can turn a can into a cane?
Who can turn a pan into a pane?
It's not too hard to see
It's magic, magic e

Who can turn a cub into a cube?
Who can turn a tub into a tube?
It's elementary
For magic, magic e

He took a pin and turned it into pine
He took a twin and turned him into twine

Who can turn a cap into a cape?
Who can turn a tap into a tape?
A little glob becomes a globe instantly
If you just add magic, magic e

He turned a dam - alikazam! - into a dame
But my friend sam stayed just the same

Who can turn a man into a mane?
Who can turn a van into a vane?
A little hug becomes huge instantly
Don't add w, don't add x, and don't add y or z,
Just add magic, magic e...

...or maybe it's God, who's also magic.

So i herd u guys liek arceus.

If god doesn't exist, does it really matter?

Everything that exists in our mind, is somehow more closer to the existence than things that does not exist in our mind. Why are we thinking about things that does not exist? The human mind can not perceive the complexity of interactions in time and space betwine things. To understand we should see the whole picture. Somehow we human`s are creators we create our own faith to believe in our purpose through god, with god. Without faith there is nothing. If I don`t believe in a direction I wont go there. It wont exist for me. In time it will fade away the memories of that direction. In the end He will say, thank you that you believed in me therefore I exist. So we chose our beliefs.

I do want to exist God, to have where to put my soul. If we someday will be super advanced, and maybe immortal than also I want to lay on my knee before existence, before everything because its bigger than me. The pure essence of existence is a miracle and it will be also when we explain it. The miracle will be that we can explain it. The miracle is that we can explain miracle.

@144
Thanks, m. But wouldn't that be Gode? Or if we complete the identity with a magic L and its partner in crime, magic umlaut, would God become Gödel? Both are adept at generating questions about the incompleteness of systems. See the above posts for examples.

Postulate: In the process of inquiry, if any explanation is attempted, its exceptions become highlighted.

Exception: Don't question God.

If the universe can spontaneously create itself, then doesn't that make the universe the "Creator?" Hmmm, maybe God IS all around us after all!

I, strongly, believe in God. He doesn't seem to. However: he's not saying that there is NOT a God. He's saying that he believes that there may or may not be a God. Therefore: he has no true beliefs, like most physicists.

"true beliefs"?

God is free from need. God's message is for us to realise and submit to our own needs - we need God!

God does not interfere with the scientific law that He created. Science governs our existence in this temporary and unfair life. Hence Heaven and Hell must exist - Accountability for the free will that we are blessed with!

Belief in God would at least let me die peacefully - even though I die a pauper, oppressed..

@ whoever said "how could stephen hawkings figure out the universe he's in a wheelchair lol", it's not like he doesn't have the time to do much more than sit and think about it. lol.

Either way I was right, before even checking the comments on this post I knew it was gonna be a huge pissing contest. "God has all these believers it must be true!" "But god doesnt stop evil so he cant exist!". Pretty hilarious if you ask me.

what is the most important way to find truth? I think is the way witch starts from within me and goes out, alongside with the relationship with me. After that the relationship with others, and with the environment. Of course this is not so simple because there is an effect what comes from outside into me. But eventually this will be integrated into me, it becomes me. So for me the first reality is my existence, after that the faith that if me exists other things could exists too, and of course the existence integrates the possibility of existing everything what I can imagine and what I cant for now. I am aware of my existence, so it is wherry possible that others could exist too. The existence`s ultimate level is the eternity of existence of what I am and what I could become. I am made to believe in the existence. If someone tells me that God does not exist(without proof), but multiple universes exists also without proof Then I think: The only existence for me is what my internal laws and proofs tells me: "you must believe in something grater then you(because it points forward, it has a forward motion, it has a direction pointing into a greater existence. I could be so happy if I could love with the acceptance of others, even if they don`t give me back that love, because I could except their existence. Things go parallel and also interacts with each other. Jesus was here to show us acceptance, and love. Maybe he new that his words also available for the laws of physics. He tought us acceptance and we couldn`t accept his words. Even forgiving has a direction, and also contains acceptance: I accept that you couldnt accept me with hope that you will accept me. So maybe I accept the possibility of Hawking`s theory till that point where "this" doesn`t tell me that other things like God could not exist. Acceptance, and love, believe, faith in something grater then me, and what I could become, what we could become, with respect for our internal laws, forgiving ourselves with the faith to become better, forgiving others. I hope that it can be understandable what I wrote here. Sorry for my English I try to be better.

Nature of GOD :The understanding of God is not something which is to be understood apart from His nature. The understanding of God includes His formless existence and all the forms created by Him. God is not something apart from forms. He is not something outside from physics and gravity rather all these laws and their effects are within God.
Guru Nanak (The first teacher of Sikhism) says:
“We can only express a sense of wonder about the beginning. The absolute void (Nothingness) abided endlessly deep within Himself then. From His state of absolute existence, He assumed the immaculate form; from formless, He assumed the supreme form.” (Page 940 Guru Granth Sahib, holy scripture)
Having said that,Guru Nanak identifies the God in following words
“O Nanak, the True One is the Giver of all; He is to be identified through creative nature we see. ||8||” (Page 141 Holy Scripture Guru Granth Sahib)
The creative nature has the power to create, sustain and destruct the life. Can Stephen Hawkins reject this identification of God given by a saint born in 1469?

Am with Hawking, I don't believe in god. Since I was a child growing up, my mother used to take me to the church, but all I saw was nothing but a priest "collecting" money. If God existed, mankind wouldn't be so f^#^#, It is rather incredible that people believe in a man made god, and a book made by men, aka the bible, as of the rest of religions like Islam, they are crap, yes, crap, crap, crap....

Am with Hawking, I don't believe in god. Since I was a child growing up, my mother used to take me to the church, but all I saw was nothing but a priest "collecting" money. If God existed, mankind wouldn't be so f^#^#, It is rather incredible that people believe in a man made god, and a book made by men, aka the bible, as of the rest of religions like Islam, they are crap, yes, crap, crap, crap....

If we could listen to what God says, listen to what our heart needs: love, acceptance, faith in us and others etc. the mankind wouldn`t be so sad, and hopeless. We have the power to drive our perception in the direction of our interest. We see what we want to see. Hawkings perception is driven by science. Science is made by man. Our hearts need came before science.

From the same man who after decades of research on black holes said, I was wrong all along"? Give me a break. He studies science not religions. He's no expert. Sorry.

I had no idea geekologie had such a religious audience.
Kinda depressing.

Wow, some of the fundie responses here are just sad. You really think your creationist textbooks give you the experience and education than Hawking? He is a renowned scientist. He knows w hat he's doing and he undoubtedly understands more about the universe than most people could ever hope to.

And, seriously, atheism is not a religion. As much as people like to malign and moan about atheists, no. There's a difference between trusting scientific research and provable data and statistics that have been researched by actual human beings and believing things out of a religious text. If religion was provable or disprovable then people wouldn't need any faith to believe in it. It gets a little tiresome when the religious try to state that their beliefs are fact and science is "faith," and it can even be dangerous. If you want to believe there is some kind of a god, fine.But don't act like it's anything other than a feeling you have.

You know what this site and others like it are?

In every atheist there is a doubt. This doubt is so scary in your minds that you need to constantly squash that doubt. The fear is that you will be judged by God. The fear that you may be wrong.

So what do you do --so you can go on with your life free of fear? You constantly search for re-enforcement that your belief is correct. After all, if its not correct, its not like just missing the ice cream truck. This would be the biggest mistake a person could possibly make.

So scour the earth with your biased eyes. Make a pile so high that no one could ever tip it over. Build a mountain of counterpoints to alleviate your fear. You cant deny thats what you do. Why else would someone devote so much time to something they have no belief in? Thats pathological. But with each news story about a Christian who cheated on his wife or someone going fanatical...you feel better. Its medicine to you.

If you didnt feel threatened deep inside you would never speak a word about it. A God wouldnt allow suffering..a God would do this..a God wouldnt do that. Funny, it never occurred to you that this is the best of all possible worlds in which Humans have freewill and come to God, humble, as children. But .. even as it is....you are still as arrogant as ever. So arrogant, lil ole you, decide what a perfect God would do.

Its so sad because He is as close as a prayer tonight for the truth. The world is set up so you would do that( if you are for God) --and plainly exposes those who are not. God is not on CNN so you will reach out for him a like a child in faith but you have already decided YOU are your own god. The throne is empty...you sit there instead. There is proof..but it only comes After you give yourself to God. What? Are you afraid? How could someone be afraid to live with Almighty God forever.

Im sorry, so very sorry. You see Christians come to places like this to help you because in the end your mountain of biased proof only counts in your mind. Your worst fear is true and is not alleviated by this exercise in futility...its alleviated freely by Christ.

Guys,stephen hawking speaks abt science.if you guys dont agree,leave it and continue your work,you ppl strain urself hard in opposing in such a irresponsible manner.your manners of god is same like ths, as you ppl say that god exists.
God never existed,it is created by human like you and given name and religion.from judaism,torah,islam nd christainty and many more.
Even now u people still in the fear of god.lives in the hope of reward after death.

Stephen Hawking is full of it, god does exist, why does he think that there are over 25 prophets came to make people believe and pray to god huh? ARE THEY ALL LYING?? of course not considering they were all at different times and places, YOU KNOW WHAT STEPHEN ITS YOUR DISBELIEVE AND INGNORANCE THAT MADE YOU FACE LOOK LIKE THAT.

do you have a proof? i have a proof for the existence of god!
please feel free to reply to me at ghydababiker@hotmail.com